Colin Powell interview with an Arabic newspaper

In an interview for the London-based newspaper al-Quds al-Arabi, the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, has said the US wants 'peace with a disarmed Iraq'. Here is the full text

[Interview begins at 6.50pm GMT on December 12, 2002.]

Colin Powell: Hello, how are you? Can you hear me OK?

Khaled Al-Shami, al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper: Yes, I can. Thank you very much.

Mr Powell: Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you. And as you know, I have just given a speech on our new Middle East partnership initiative.

Al-Shami: Yes, thank you very much for your time sir, and a very good afternoon to you. And I would really like to congratulate you on this historical speech as far as we received from here.

Mr Powell: Thank you.

Al-Shami: If you allow me, I would like to start with asking you whether you actually have spoken to your close allies in the Arab world, specifically Saudi Arabia, regarding your initiative, and what kind of response did you have from them?

Mr Powell: We have been in touch with all of them at various levels and a good part of the message I delivered today was shared with them earlier, so they knew it was coming. And, in fact, some of these initiatives have already begun. And so I think we will get a fine response. Now that I have actually delivered the speech, I will be talking to all of my colleagues in the region to see how we can follow up and to receive their advice on it.

Al-Shami: If we may, with Saudi Arabia, if you can be specific on what kind of reforms you expect to see there, if they have no elected parliament to start with, and as you know, there are no parties and women are not even allowed to drive, let alone take part in a political life.

Mr Powell: I understand that and I have had very candid discussions with Saudi leaders in the past. I respect their culture and their heritage and their traditions, but I think that they now, as they move forward, will have to start examining these traditions and these practices to see whether or not change is appropriate.

It is not the role of the United States to dictate change, but to enter into discussions with our friends. I think our initiative with respect to education and economic development can work in Saudi Arabia and it is up to the Saudis to decide how they wish to transform their society in order to make it prepared for the challenges of the 21st century.

So we are not shrinking from talking to Saudis or anyone else in the region, but it is up to each nation in the region to decide on its own how it will proceed and at what pace. There are other nations in the region that had similar policies to Saudi Arabia that are starting to make changes, such as Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Morocco. And so it takes time but when you see the need for such changes, then changes tend to follow.

Al-Shami: So, basically, you'd like to see Saudi Arabia following on the same path as Bahrain and Qatar by having elected parliaments and free speech, for example?

Mr Powell: That is up to the leadership of Saudi Arabia to decide. You know that our model of politics is one that it is inclusive of all members of the society; all should be represented. That is the nature of our democracy. Saudi Arabia will have to decide its own path, and I don't know if it will decide a path like any other nation in the region or if it will design something that is unique to Saudi Arabia.

So we are not dictating. We are not telling them how they should do it or who they should look like. We are their friends. We have mutual interests and we will help them in any way that is possible. And if we think - I think we can make a contribution to their thinking as they decide how they should deal with the economic and social challenges that they are facing.

Al-Shami: OK. So what will the US do if those regimes in general in the Arab world remain resistant to peaceful and gradual change toward democracy, claiming that this is like interference in their interior affairs? Will change of regimes be an option, as the case in Iraq?

Mr Powell: Change of regime with respect to Iraq had nothing to do with this; it had everything to do with the fact that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And at the time change in regime as a policy came into effect in 1998, it was seen as the only way to compel Iraq to get rid of its weapons of mass destruction. With respect to our friends in the region, each has its own system, each will have to make its own judgment as to whether it will change, how fast it will change, and we hope that we can help influence them as to how change comes about and what change might be better for them than other forms of change. So there is no suggestion of regime change; quite the contrary, this is an initiative to help people and to help governments who are inclined toward change. And if we can help them as they think through this problem and give them assistance and be of assistance to their peoples, fine. Bahrain is moving at one pace, Morocco another, Qatar at another, Kuwait at yet another. And we are there to assist our friends.

Al-Shami: And will the existing economic and military assistance to a country like Egypt be affected if the government there fails to benefit from your initiative today, as it happened recently regarding the case of the Dr. Saad Eddin Ibrahim, for example?

Mr Powell: In the case of Professor Ibrahim, that is something that the Egyptian government has to deal with as an internal matter. I must say that I was somewhat encouraged in recent days by the decision of the court in Egypt and we'll see how that case resolves itself. We view Egypt as a good friend of America. We are in constant touch with them. We provide them economic and military assistance as part of our relationship, and now we hope that some of that assistance can be channeled in the directions I described today. And we hope that more assistance will be available to the nations of the region, to include Egypt, on the three pillars that I discussed today: civic society development, education and economic development.

Al-Shami: OK. So if we can move to Iraq and the question everybody is asking in the Arab world now, whether the US still needs to obtain approval from the security council to launch war in Iraq in response to what it unilaterally may view as material breach.

Mr Powell: The United States is not looking for a way to launch war. The United States is looking at a way to launch peace with a disarmed Iraq. And so we are studying the declaration that Iraq submitted. Other members of the security council are studying the declaration, as is Unmovic and IAEA, and I would not make a judgment as to whether or not the declaration will be found deficient and whether or not that might lead to a material breach and whether or not, if it did, that would lead to action on the part of the United Nations.

We want to approach this in a multilateral way, talking with our friends, consulting with our security council colleagues in the United Nations, hoping to find a way to solve this peacefully, but at the same time recognising that unless the threat of military force is there, Iraq will not disarm.

The person who will decide whether or not there will be war or peace is Saddam Hussein, and all he has to do is give up these terrible weapons that he has used to kill fellow Arabs, fellow Muslims in that part of the world, and to step away from his past behaviour which invaded neighbouring countries. It was not the United States who invaded Kuwait; it was Iraq. It was not the United States that went to war with Iran; it was Iraq. It was not the United States that fired chemical weapons at Iran; it was Iraq. And it was not the United States that murdered innocent Iraqi citizens with chemical weapons; it was Iraq.

And so I think all of the attention of the world, to include the attention of the Arab world, should be on Saddam Hussein and whether or not he is prepared to give up the weapons of mass destruction that he has used to terrorise the region.

Al-Shami: And with due respect, sir, it seems to us that almost everyone's opinion in the Arab world, that even [if] the Iraqi cooperation with the UN will continue, the US will still go to war to remove Saddam next month. How accurate is this, and will you allow him to stay in power if he is proven disarmed by the inspectors?

Mr Powell: It is not an accurate assessment. Nobody has ever said in the United States government that we are going to war next month. No decision has been made by the president because, as he said to the United Nations, he wants the United Nations to live up to its responsibilities and he wants Saddam Hussein to cooperate.

The president has said repeatedly that the purpose of this is to disarm. And if he cooperates, not just cooperate to see how much he can get away with, but cooperate fully to turn over all the documents necessary, all the people who could be interviewed to get to the truth, and turn over all his capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction, if he does all that to the satisfaction of the international community, then there will be no war and the people of Iraq can decide who their leader should be.

Al-Shami: OK. In the name of the Iraqi opposition -

Mr Powell: But there's no doubt in my mind, though, that the Iraqi people would be better off with a different leader who did not waste their oil on weapons, as opposed to education, as opposed to healthcare, as opposed to food, as opposed to roads, as opposed to clean water. It is really sinful, a crime, what Saddam Hussein has done with the wealth of the Iraqi people over the last 30 years.

Al-Shami: I mean, we take it as what President Bush repeatedly said earlier this year, that it is a US policy that the regime in Iraq has to go. So is this a change of policy now?

Mr Powell: It was President Clinton and the United States congress in 1998 which said that the regime has to be changed because the regime would not give up its weapons of mass destruction. We came into office in 2001 and kept that policy because Saddam Hussein had not changed.

We now believe it is appropriate for Saddam Hussein to be forced to change, either by the threat of war, and therefore that compels him to cooperate. If he cooperates, then the basis of changed regime policy has shifted because his regime has, in fact, changed its policy to one of cooperation. So if he cooperates, then that is different than if he does not cooperate.

Al-Shami: So removing Saddam, in itself, is no longer a US policy as we take it?

Mr Powell: It remains our policy to change the regime until such time as the regime changes itself. So far, we cannot be sure that he is cooperating or he is acting in a way that could give us comfort, or should give the international community comfort, that he is giving up his weapons of mass destruction. He continues to give us statements that suggest he is not in possession of weapons of mass destruction when we know he is.

So the burden is on him, not on us. The burden is on Saddam Hussein. And our policy, our national policy - not the UN policy but our national policy - is that the regime should be changed until such time as he demonstrates that it is not necessary to change the regime because the regime has changed itself. But we are not at that point, therefore I am not advocating, nor am I suggesting to you, that United States policy has changed.

Al-Shami: In light of the Iraqi opposition conference here in London, do you think that they can present a real alternative to Saddam? And who is going to be in power, as far as you are concerned, in Baghdad after Saddam goes?

Mr Powell: It is not our place to decide who should lead the Iraqi people. If Saddam leaves or has to be forced out of power and a new regime brought in, a new leadership brought in, I am confident it will be some combination of people inside the country and outside the country.

I am pleased that the conference is taking place, but I would not presume from this distance, nor would America presume to say who should be the leader of the Iraqi nation.

What we would be committed to would be a representative government where all the Iraqi people decide who should lead their nation, and lead it in a way that keeps it together as a single nation and where all parts of the nation - Shia, Sunni and Kurds - are able to live free and in peace and believe that their interests are represented by the government.

Al-Shami: It seems that the Iraqi opposition enjoys varied degrees of credibility, even inside Washington. So as far as you are concerned, do you think they can provide reliable alternative to Saddam's regime, and would you rule out American military ruling of Iraq after Saddam?

Mr Powell: It is not possible to rule out anything because we don't know what will happen. You know, I can't answer that because if military force is necessary, then military force will go in. But it is the US government's desire for the Iraqi people to lead themselves, not for any outside power to be the leadership for Iraq in the future. There may be some transition period where the international community would have to help the Iraqi people put in place a representative government. But that is the goal, not for the United States, or any other nation, for that matter, who might be in such a coalition, if one is formed, to serve as the leader of the Iraqi nation.

Al-Shami: If we move to the ...

Mr Powell: I'm afraid I'm going to have to run. I've got a ...

Al-Shami: Just a quick question President Arafat. Is removing chairman Arafat still a US policy? And can you name any possible alternative to him, if there is any?

Mr Powell: Well, chairman Arafat is still the chairman and president of the Palestinian Authority, but we believe that his leadership has failed, it has been flawed, so we have been advocating new leadership to come to the fore. We would like to see new leaders come forward who would be accountable and responsible, who would succeed in ending the terror and the violence. And it is up to the Palestinian people to judge who those new leaders should be. The United States stands willing to work with a transformed Palestinian Authority with new leaders coming to the front.

Al-Shami: But if he wins the election, as it is widely ...

Mr Powell: I'm afraid I really do have to get to a meeting. Forgive me.

Al-Shami: All right. Thank you very much, sir, for your time. I would hope we can talk again. Thank you very much.

Mr Powell: Bye-bye.

Al-Shami: Thanks. Bye.

Source: US state department

The GuardianTramp

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